If geeks love it, we’re on it

PCI: Why won’t it die?

PCI: Why won’t it die?

Due to a hard lesson on the practical limitations of RAID arrays on my gaming rig, I found myself with an unexpected block of free time. As I worked to shore things up, my thoughts eventually turned toward Batman: Arkham Asylum, and how I might improve my gaming experience by adding a little PhysX to my ATI system. It was too much to buy into a full-fledged NVIDIA GPU, but I’d heard of recent additions to the PhysX-compatible GeForce 9000 series–the 9400 GT and 9500 GT–both of which are available in PCI flavor.

“PCI,” I thought to myself, “that sounds perfect! I could use it alongside my CrossFireX configuration!” I decided to do some research on the idea, and the consensus offered by Google was that the PCI bus does not offer enough bandwidth to make hardware-accelerated PhysX viable.

I was disappointed, but it turned my thoughts towards PCI in general. Why is this antiquated standard still so common in modern PC parts?

Why are those there? WHY?

Why is that there? WHY?

What is PCI?

PCI, short for Peripheral Component Interconnect, hit the mainstream in late 1994. It made its major debut in second-generation Pentium-class systems, but was soon adopted into the not-quite-dead-yet 486 market as well (my dad actually has a 486 with PCI slots). In simple terms, we’re talking about a standard that became common fifteen years ago. Relative to the pace of technology, that’s ancient.

On technical specifications, PCI is simple: Consumer-grade PCI slots operate on a 32-bit bus which run at 33.33MHz. This gives the PCI bus a maximum transfer rate of 133 megabytes per second, but that’s shared between every PCI device in the computer.

PCI Express

pci_express_bandwidthPCI Express 1.0 was introduced by Intel in 2004 to address the growing need for bandwidth that PCI was too old and too slow to provide. PCI Express operates by creating “lanes” between the installed device and the controller. Each lane represents a full-duplex data connection, and at the time of launch, each of these lanes carried 250 megabytes per second. This means that a single x1 PCI Express slot offers nearly double the bandwidth of the entire PCI bus, and it isn’t even shared amongst other devices.

PCI Express was also designed to be highly scalable, offering slots configured with one lane (x1, 250MB/s), four lanes (x4, 1000MB/s), eight lanes (x8, 2000MB/s), and 16 lanes (x16, 4000MB/s). On top of that, the spec was updated to v2.0 in 2007 to offer double those figures. Essentially, this means that any computer purchased in 2007 or later has nearly four times PCI’s bandwidth in every single PCI express lane.

Assuming you have a relatively high-quality enthusiast motherboard that offers a pair of x1 and x16 slots, that means the peak bandwidth of your PCI Express bus is 17,000 megabytes per second. That is nearly 128 times the entire bandwidth of the PCI bus. That begs the question: Why would you even want to use PCI in a modern computer? It’s old, it’s slow, it’s ugly, and PCI Express is far and away the superior option.

I took a stroll through Newegg, and I could not find a single consumer motherboard that does not have PCI slots—not even the high performance boards are pure PCI Express. Frankly, I find it very dismaying that even $300 motherboard using the latest available chipsets are still anchored to a technology that’s more than 15 years old.

Why is PCI still here?

I’ve taken to considering why motherboard vendors have a continued interest in providing antiquated PCI slots, and I’ve reached this conclusion: Modern motherboards still have PCI slots because manufacturers simply have not demonstrated any effort to dump the old technology.

Industry standards are implemented on need and economy. Firewire met a need, but Apple held onto the standard too tightly, and the standard proved too costly to broadly implement. RDRAM had an incredibly high proposed bandwidth for its time, but it flopped because the manufacturing process made it too expensive. PCI express, on the other hand, is cheap and abundant. Therefore, we can only conclude that the adoption of PCI Express is being held back by add-in board vendors which have not been forced to seriously consider switching their PCI products over to PCI Express. That will not happen until motherboard manufacturers, in turn, start dumping PCI slots on their highest-end boards to set the tone.

I’d really like to see PCI Express take finally take hold of the mainstream but, to me, it looks like the final nudge that will fully seat PCI Express into its rightful throne has to come from the removal of that aging old bastard, PCI.

Comments

  1. =MBG= De Sniper Wow didnt realize that was that old and how slow those things are, thanks for the informative article, definitely would support them getting rid of those on high end and all motherboards eventually.
  2. Leonardo
    Leonardo I don't think it's an arbitrary reluctance by manufacturers to dump the PCI capability. It is more likely the millions upon millions of consumers have PCI-interface cards, who don't want to purchase new cards. The motherboard manufacturers will implement whatever available technology that they think will be profitable.
  3. Thrax
    Thrax I don't think that's true, Leo. Do you remember when ABIT released the MAX3 motherboards? No legacy connectors of any kind: No serial, no parallel, no PS/2. This very community was thrilled by the development because we were happy to see quaint, old, dumb standards go. PCI is no different.

    If high-end mobo vendors start offering high-end motherboards that preclude PCI, they will be bought by customers who understand what they're getting into. There are already WiFi adapters which fit x1 slots, and that fulfills damn near everyone's AIB needs.

    It really is time to kill PCI on the high end and start the trickle down.
  4. photodude
    photodude maybe just maybe we'll see PCI slots make their slow death a little faster once PCIe 3.0 is released.

    But consider the number of PCIe products, now compare that to the number of PCI products. New currently being released.

    2 years ago few OEM mobos had PCIe for anything but graphics, only in the last year has OEM mobos been released with no PCI (my father bought a HP that was stocked with PCIe x1 slots and one PCIe x16 slot) I'm guessing replacement mobos and enthusiast mobos keep a pci slot around in case you have any legacy hardware. but the OEM boards are going a different direction.
  5. primesuspect
    primesuspect I haven't used an actual PCI device in probably 4 or even 5 years.
  6. Winfrey
    Winfrey Bring back ISA slots! :bigggrin:
  7. Myrmidon
    Myrmidon Aaaaaah winfrey beat me to ISA reference.
  8. Zuntar
    Zuntar My Xfi Sound card is PCI, but I am all for dumping the old connections on a mobo. I mean seriously how many people still use floppys & ps2 port?
  9. Morceo Some of us still use Texas Instrument interface cards that are upwards 1k for a new one, and they aren't even available in PCI-E yet.. slacking motherboard vendors or not, I'm thankful :)
  10. Cliff_Forster
    Cliff_Forster I just purchased a pair of PCI wireless network cards for desktops, not so much because I wanted to, but that was what was reasonably available for that application.
  11. Thrax
    Thrax
    I just purchased a pair of PCI wireless network cards for desktops, not so much because I wanted to, but that was what was reasonably available for that application.

    D-Link makes a range of excellent PCIe wireless adapters that are no more pricey than their normal sort.
  12. Leonardo
    Leonardo
    I mean seriously how many people still use floppys & ps2 port?
    I still use floppy drives for flashing mobo BIOSes because I can't get flashing from a USB device to work. I only connect the floppy drive if I need to flash, which is rarely. I also use PS/2 motherboards and mice, simply because the couple I still have work well and don't need replacing yet. I have no PCI devices left. The last were PCI wireless cards, which I sold when I got fed up with wireless and wired the house for Ethernet.

    If you look at retail stores - at least in my area, probably half the the network cards on the shelves are still PCI. We need to remember that the ordinary computer user does not upgrade to new standards as fast as the typical Icrontic reader.
  13. Thrax
    Thrax Nobody is proposing we wipe PCI off the map in a single generation. Just like nobody proposed it for AGP, or any other legacy port. But what DID happen is those ports started going away on high-end parts to get the market used to the concept, and then it was slowly phased down into the budget parts over several years.

    We're almost 5 years out on PCIe, and that has not occurred and shows no signs of occurring. That is what needs to happen. Someone has to pull the trigger.
  14. primesuspect
    primesuspect Right, but basically every motherboard made in the past 5 years has really high quality on-board audio and network.

    And, if the onboard fails or is not usable for some reason, there are dozens of PCI Express audio cards and network cards.

    Besides, are people buying NEW motherboards made in the next two years REALLY going to need PCI slots? Why?
  15. Leonardo
    Leonardo
    Right, but basically every motherboard made in the past 5 years has really high quality on-board audio and network.
    I think that's the key. Due to yesterday's add-ons being merely integrated chips on modern motherboards, there's less demand for expansion parts. For the majority of consumers, they get what they need straight out of the Dell, Acer, or HP box. If they need something more, it's usually got a USB cable on it. I think we'll see USB 3 make a much quicker mainstream presence than PCI-e.
  16. Thrax
    Thrax Hey, I would prefer to see PCI wiped off the map tomorrow. ;) Onboard audio and LAN works very well, and the market's raging fascination with omg 14.12 audio channels has subsided. People no longer care about creative or their shitacular drivers, and nobody can fill the void because Creative has EAX on lockdown.

    For WiFi, there are tons of PCIe WiFi adapters. For RAID, you'd be insane or stupid not to have at LEAST a PCIe 8x adapter sitting in your box, or you're using onboard software RAID.

    Basically, the only argument in favor of keeping PCI is: "But my bargain basement wireless card still works okay. :("
  17. Leonardo
    Leonardo
    Basically, the only argument in favor of keeping PCI is: "But my bargain basement wireless card still works okay.
    LOL, and for most of them giving that explanation, it does work well...enough. But yeah, I also wouldn't mind seeing PCI gone for good. (with dual 9800GX2s, there's no room for PCI cards anyway :hair:) Give me more PCI-e video slots and...oh, but then...I'd need another round of PSU upgrades. Never mind.
  18. Sledgehammer70
    Sledgehammer70 I know the Audio with my DFI lan party seems to be better than that of Creative. Maybe I need the uber pricey Creative card?

    I was happy to see AGP go away :)
  19. lordbean
    lordbean PCI express isn't any more expensive to build cards for than PCI. In fact, when the process is mature, I'd have to guess it'd be cheaper because you can build cards that are physically smaller for PCI express.

    No reason why we can't have bargain basement PCI express wireless cards.
  20. Cliff_Forster
    Cliff_Forster
    Thrax wrote:
    D-Link makes a range of excellent PCIe wireless adapters that are no more pricey than their normal sort.

    On all of newegg there is one that is priced $55. I purchased adapters that will suit my needs perfectly fine for about $15.

    Standard PCI wireless desktop cards outnumber PCI Express about 1000 to 1 right now. I'm not particularly pleased that is the case, but it is what it is.
  21. lordbean
    lordbean Cliff, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Consumers aren't buying PCI express because of low product selection, manufacturers aren't making PCI express products because PCI is more mature and "burned in", and motherboard manufacturers haven't forced them to think any differently because they haven't dropped PCI from their boards. All of this would change if, starting tomorrow, every new motherboard was to include PCI express slots only. Product selection in PCI express would increase dramatically, production would ramp up to match demand, and prices would soon drop as the PCI express manufacturing process became standard.
  22. Thrax
    Thrax ^ Which is exactly what happened to USB printers, keyboards, mice and PCIe graphics cards when mfgrs stopped offering legacy connectors.
  23. photodude
    photodude ^^which is the point I echoed, Volume of product selection is king to consumers. as well as lowest price point (which also comes from volume and competition)

    I also think we can thank the recession for a lot of people avoiding replacing computers, they have been upgrading or replacing parts to keep their current systems running. My father in-law one of those who is still using a P4 2.4Ghz system with part after part being replaced (except the CPU and Mobo) He's one of the masses that help drive the PCI world as he replaces parts to maintain a functional computer (we hope he'll finally commit to replacing his system, but he's holding out for total death)
  24. Leonardo
    Leonardo
    Volume of product selection is king to consumers
    And total volume shipped is one of the major deciding factors a manufacturer considers. Why put a big emphasis on PCI-e interface, when apart from aftermarket video cards, there is not the volume of add-on card sales that there was just a few years ago? It used to be that just about anything quality needed to be at the expansion port. As we discussed earlier, those features are now on board and the quality is acceptable for most users. I don't need an Ethernet card anymore, or wireless, or sound, or multi-USB (card). Heck, just five years ago I remember the standard advice we gave to home builders was to turn off the integrated sound and order a sound card.
  25. MJO
    MJO Well I did buy a discrete sound card when I got my last motherboard.
    The ASUS Crosshair II Formula, the supplied onboard sound was ridiculously poor and I went and got myself a discrete card.
    The Asus Xonar D2, which has it's own set of interesting driver issues though. :)
  26. mirage
    mirage Although parallel and serial topologies of PCI and PCI-E are entirely different, chipset manufacturers are still integrating PCI bus along with PCI-E at the additional cost. Apparently they see the benefit. PCI will only die after Intel and AMD stop offering the PCI bus on their chipsets. It does not matter if the motherboard manufacturer omit the port or not, we will not have the port but PCI will be inside the chipset running all the time.
  27. lordbean
    lordbean
    mirage wrote:
    Although parallel and serial topologies of PCI and PCI-E are entirely different, chipset manufacturers are still integrating PCI bus along with PCI-E at the additional cost. Apparently they see the benefit. PCI will only die after Intel and AMD stop offering the PCI bus on their chipsets. It does not matter if the motherboard manufacturer omit the port or not, we will not have the port but PCI will be inside the chipset running all the time.

    It doesn't matter whether it's in the chipset or not. If no physical ports are available, no PCI devices can be put in the computer, hence forcing PCI express devices to be used.
  28. mirage
    mirage So you think it does not matter if the chipset does not support PCI? They can still add a fake PCI port for decoration, I guess :) Or, add an additional PCI controller chip next to IDE controller for free.
  29. lordbean
    lordbean
    mirage wrote:
    So you think it does not matter if the chipset does not support PCI? They can still add a fake PCI port for decoration, I guess :) Or, add an additional PCI controller chip next to IDE controller for free.

    I'll grant you, if Intel and AMD drop PCI right out of their chipsets, that'd be the fastest way to get people to switch over. What I'm saying is, from the standpoint of getting add-in card manufacturers to switch, it doesn't matter if the chipset still supports PCI - it won't help if there are no PCI slots on the motherboard.
  30. Cliff_Forster
    Cliff_Forster
    lordbean wrote:
    I'll grant you, if Intel and AMD drop PCI right out of their chipsets, that'd be the fastest way to get people to switch over. What I'm saying is, from the standpoint of getting add-in card manufacturers to switch, it doesn't matter if the chipset still supports PCI - it won't help if there are no PCI slots on the motherboard.

    Remember the initial outcry when Microsoft stopped supporting DOS?

    Recently there has been some to-do over AMD dropping support for legacy graphics products, basically anything prior to DX9.

    What everyone is saying here is right, its up to the industry to drive innovation, not the consumer.
  31. mirage
    mirage
    Remember the initial outcry when Microsoft stopped supporting DOS?

    I only remember the tears of joy in my eyes.

    Some companies are driven by market, some of them drive the market. I think the latter is better for investment.
  32. djmeph
    djmeph I think the reason why the PCI standard still exists so prevalently is because of the sheer amount of PCI devices that were made and are still out there. For example, on my DAW I still use a Creative Labs Audigy 2 PCI sound card, just so I don't have to take the performance hit with the on-board sound. I also have about three different TV-tuner cards laying around that I use from time-to-time. If it weren't for the fact that the standard was around for so long, and there are still so many PCI cards out there, I think they would have disappeared a while ago.
  33. Tim
    Tim PCI slots -- the Internet Explorer 6 of computer hardware!

    There are many PCI devices out there now, that can still be used and don't need the bandwidth of a PCI Express slot to do their job, like modem cards and FireWire cards and sound cards. No one wants to buy a new card because new motherboards don't have PCI slots anymore. Some people will want their PCI Express slots for other high end uses like gaming graphics and crossfire.
  34. photodude
    photodude
    djmeph wrote:
    If it weren't for the fact that the standard was around for so long, and there are still so many PCI cards out there, I think they would have disappeared a while ago.

    ISA was around for a long time too, and there was a lot of ISA boards made. yet ISA almost vanished when PCI was first released. I'm starting to think for many people PCI is "good enough" for some applications hence little support for PCIe

    I also just thought about the standards and slots issue (PCIe1.x, PCIe2.x, PCIe x1 PCIe x4 PCIe x8 PCIex16). I think a lot of consumers are confused by all the standards and slots in the PCIe arena.
    djmeph wrote:
    I still use a Creative Labs Audigy 2 PCI sound card, just so I don't have to take the performance hit with the on-board sound.
    There really isn't any performance hit for using on-board sound anymore(2006 and newer). In some cases adding a sound card can add problems; driver conflicts, hardware conflicts, bad drivers from the sound card manufacturer, additional hardware that might fail, Hardware that is inferior to the on-board hardware, etc. As has been stated several times most on-board sound is great for 99% of people.
  35. drasnor
    drasnor I don't really see the need for PCI to die right now. Sorry if it's blemishing your motherboard, but where I work we just managed to get to PCI from ISA. National Instruments doesn't offer any of its hardware in PCI-E yet and probably won't for another few years.

    I tend to use PS/2 keyboards since having to figure out which USB keyboards can read more than three simultaneous keypresses is a PITA. My Das Keyboard II can but my Logitech DiNovo Edge can't do it. Using more than one F-key at the same time seems to trip the Caps Lock periodically as well. My IBM Type M may be a beast but it will work forever.

    Likewise with sound; I've seen decent motherboard sound implementations but you don't really know what you're getting until you have the computer all put together and the OS installed. The feature list for the motherboard isn't going to tell you if the analog outputs are poorly isolated from ground noise and motherboard reviewers don't seem to care if the sound hisses when you drag windows. What am I supposed to do if the motherboard has crappy internal sound (I'm looking at you, Gigabyte?) Am I really going to disassemble my PC, pull the motherboard, and mail it back to Newegg and wait a couple weeks for a replacement? I've got a stockpile of PCI sound cards with good isolation and DACs that I can use but I still haven't seen a PCI-E sound card that I'd be willing to dosh out for.

    -drasnor :fold:
  36. primesuspect
    primesuspect Yes, all engineer types, we know that backwards-ass DACs run on PCI. We're talking about the mainstream here.

    I keep seeing "my work uses PCI". Your work is not buying the latest high end gaming rig either.
  37. drasnor
    drasnor My work tends to become homework, so the interest is legitimate :vimp:.

    -drasnor :fold:
  38. photodude
    photodude
    drasnor wrote:
    National Instruments doesn't offer any of its hardware in PCI-E yet and probably won't for another few years.

    NI offers a lot of their stuff via USB connections, which is how we interfaced with the stuff they had at the last NI seminar I attended, I expect NI will continue to use external devices with USB, rather then PCIe, as it's more convenient, safer and faster to move the device from computer to computer. There are many people who want to move NI devices from computer to computer as need for the device arises rather then having dedicated hardware that shouldn't be moved all the time.

    PCI is not just a blemish, it's taking away a space that could be used for another PCIe x16 slot. More PCIe x16 is better (if you can afford to add all the cards to fill your slots, I've seen ATX boards with 7 PCIe x16 slots, and that's a lot of money needed to fill all those slots)
  39. yagga
    yagga I don't know if we need pci to quite die off yet, but I definitely agree that pci-xpress has taken a while to adopt. I have seen for a good year or so now a lot more pci-xpress cards around, so I definitely would choose that over pci if I had the choice, in which I don't, because my high end pc is based off of netburst technology.

    My concern with pci-xpress is that very few boards offer many x1s, and almost none offer them in the x4, or x8 flavors, and they are always next to x16s which can make them useless with the right graphics card(s).

    I also want to say I like ps2 ports, simply because you can't really put the plug in backwards (like usb), and they hold the plug SNUGLY (completely opposite of usb), and when I need to look around the back I also know what's what and don't have to guess so much on what this or that usb cord goes to. They also ALWAYS WORK PERIOD with ANYTHING I MIGHT BE USING. They are color coded. And, old 10lb(ish) SOLID keyboards fit this port.

    For me, Motherboards must have:
    1. PS2-mouse
    2. PS2-keyboard
    3. Gigabit ethernet (1 minimum, 2 is nice for the sake of 'if one dies')
    4. 6/8ish USB2 (or v.3 now)(more is crazy, and bad on real estate space)(4 might even be okay, 2 is a no-go!)
    5. Firewire (just in case I need it, which I probably won't)
    6. Onboard surround sound
    7. e-sata
    8. (would be nice if room) Parallel (just in case someone has an old reliable cheap large-capacity ink cartridge printer)
    9. (last on the list, not needed, only for sentimental reasons, could care less) 1 serial (not 2!)
    10. (am I forgetting any other random port?)

    The insides would ideally have:
    1. minimum 1 x16, 2 x16s at most
    2. 1 pci, or 2 at most (if 2 position them by the gpu)
    3. 3-5 pci-xpress, ideally x4s or at least one or 2 x4s
  40. ardichoke
    ardichoke Keep in mind here that the parallel port was introduced in 1970 and that RS-232 rev C came out in 1969 yet we have just seen them disappear from motherboards in the past few years. Using those as the basis of comparison, the PCI slot won't be going away any time soon.

    Motherboard manufacturers don't want to risk not selling their board because the user has some older devices laying around. I know that I expect there to be 1 PCI slot on any board I buy still simply because I have a couple PCI wireless cards laying around that I use in a pinch if I need to access wireless on my desktop for some reason. I also had a nice soundblaster that I would use instead of the onboard audio which was PCI, though that has gone the way of the dino as of my last rebuild.
  41. djmeph
    djmeph What about 64-bit PCI slots? I've got an Adaptec RAID card that uses one.
  42. lordbean
    lordbean
    djmeph wrote:
    What about 64-bit PCI slots? I've got an Adaptec RAID card that uses one.

    64-bit PCI isn't a topic I covered in my article. It's a niche product because you only see that type of PCI slot on server or multiprocessor motherboards, really. I was focusing more on the mainstream end-user hardware.
  43. Tim
    Tim quoting Drasnor - I tend to use PS/2 keyboards since having to figure out which USB keyboards can read more than three simultaneous keypresses is a PITA.

    Under what circumstances would you need a keyboard that can read 3 simultaneous keypresses or more? Aside from Ctrl-Alt-Delete, that is?
  44. photodude
    photodude
    Tim wrote:
    Under what circumstances would you need a keyboard that can read 3 simultaneous keypresses or more? Aside from Ctrl-Alt-Delete, that is?

    CAD and Photoshop for starters, as well as many other CAD/CAM and DCC programs have key commands that can be 4 key combinations.

    HotKeying is Hot :rockon:
  45. Ryder
    Ryder Lots of games have 5, 6 simultaneous keys also.
  46. drasnor
    drasnor Ditto what they said, but it's worth noting that the Ctrl-Alt-Del equivalent for Linux is four keys.

    I'm oversimplifying things a bit though; most keyboards can read more than three keypresses simultaneously but the layout and number of switch matrix channels determines which keypresses can be discerned simultaneously. Certain manufacturers are better about this than others but it's not something that can be easily screened for without a keyboard being extensively reviewed or actually having it in front of me.

    -drasnor :fold:
  47. ardichoke
    ardichoke The Ctrl-Alt-Del equivalent for Linux IS Ctrl-Alt-Del.... unless you're talking about the sys-req kill keys which are a step beyond C-A-D really.
  48. drasnor
    drasnor I am talking about the sys-req kill keys.

    -drasnor :fold:
  49. Leonardo
    Leonardo Hey guys, why don't you open a riveting thread on Linux hot-key methods. :zombie:

    I'll grant you that Linux users should be heard too, but I highly doubt hardware purchasing habits of Linux users have any bearing whatsoever on manufacturers' implementation of PCI and PCI-e.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!